Curse

Chad · Jul 19, 2005, 06:48 PM // 18:48

I think its totally rediculous. If my group seeks a monk and there's a monk out there charging money for their services, I'll ask them to join the group and pay them if we win. If we lose, so be it. If we win, he then goes on my ignore list and I don't pay him a cent. Problem solved.

If he demands payment before we even start the mission, forget it. What's stopping him from taking my gold and logging off or whatever?

Whether you pay up front or pay after their services, there's a lot of trust going on with this sort of thing. It could be some nice trustworthy person who will keep his end of the bargain, or it could be some hard*** like myself and will screw you over. Personally I don't have enough faith in random people to place that much trust in them.

Nexx · Jul 19, 2005, 06:51 PM // 18:51

Supply and demand. >_< I know it sucks, but hey if a stupid sword can go for over 50K, why can't monks charge for service? If people want it bad enough, they'll play for the service...

bstripp · Jul 19, 2005, 06:51 PM // 18:51

The really sad part is that they could make more money just playing the game then spamming "Experienced monk willing to help for 1k".

Age · Jul 19, 2005, 06:54 PM // 18:54

I will say this is it does cost a lot to be a Monk like all the armor thet need this includes 4 scalp armor with runes and the rest can be said as well for all there other armor as some have 3 sets.This would be body,Wanderers and Censor or Judeges.Then there is FOW and Granite Citital.

Bingley Joe · Jul 19, 2005, 06:54 PM // 18:54

Quote:

Originally Posted by Kershent

Not to mention it's very sleazy to do this sort of thing. You're taking advantage of people who are desperate for healers. Pretty lame.

Nobody is "desperate for healers" in this game though.

The henchies will run every mission with you save for FoW/UW, and plenty of people have beaten the game without a single shred of help from another human player the entire time. Groups who are "desperate for healers" only THINK they are, since the reality is that the henchies will do just fine.

OTOH, who cares if that's what they think? If they're playing the game the same as the rest of us and have come to the conclusion that no AI healer will ever be able to get them through the mission (and haven't realised yet that the presence/absence of one character isn't really make-or-break in this game), then why shouldn't someone come along and offer to do what they want for a fee?

As far as I'm concerned once they WILLINGLY hand over their money to a dial-a-monk here, no one is being taken advantage of.

Besides, how is it sleazy to come to the community before hand in an effort to determine if (a) there would even be any interest in this kind of service, and (b) what kind of prices people would reasonably be willing to pay? I think the OP is clearly demonstrating an interest in doing this 'the right way', it's just going to be an admittedly hard-sell for the most part.

Darksci - I think I would seriously look into how you might give the impression of a much 'sweeter' deal to potential customers, otherwise I have a feeling you won't have much luck with this.

Something like "don't pay if three or more of you die", or "free for any teammates who need more than one rez", etc. Something you think you can handle (you want to be paid, after all), but that still implies a decent risk on your part so they'll be tempted to gamble on you failing.

Those are my thoughts, anyway..

Algren Cole · Jul 19, 2005, 06:57 PM // 18:57

Quote:

Originally Posted by Bingley Joe

Nobody is "desperate for healers" in this game though.

The henchies will run every mission with you save for FoW/UW, and plenty of people have beaten the game without a single shred of help from another human player the entire time. Groups who are "desperate for healers" only THINK they are, since the reality is that the henchies will do just fine.

OTOH, who cares if that's what they think? If they're playing the game the same as the rest of us and have come to the conclusion that no AI healer will ever be able to get them through the mission (and haven't realised yet that the presence/absence of one character isn't really make-or-break in this game), then why shouldn't someone come along and offer to do what they want for a fee?

As far as I'm concerned once they WILLINGLY hand over their money to a dial-a-monk here, no one is being taken advantage of.

Besides, how is it sleazy to come to the community before hand in an effort to determine if (a) there would even be any interest in this kind of service, and (b) what kind of prices people would reasonably be willing to pay? I think the OP is clearly demonstrating an interest in doing this 'the right way', it's just going to be an admittedly hard-sell for the most part.

Darksci - I think I would seriously look into how you might give the impression of a much 'sweeter' deal to potential customers, otherwise I have a feeling you won't have much luck with this.

Something like "don't pay if three or more of you die", or "free for any teammates who need more than one rez", etc. Something you think you can handle (you want to be paid, after all), but that still implies a decent risk on your part so they'll be tempted to gamble on you failing.

Those are my thoughts, anyway..

i'd purposefully rush mobs without my armor on...

Mithie · Jul 19, 2005, 06:57 PM // 18:57

Frankly, I don't care what you do with your time. If you want to charge other people for playing the same game, fine, but I won't ever be paying anyone for anything, especially not when I see this game as entertainment and not as economic burden.

MuKen · Jul 19, 2005, 07:00 PM // 19:00

Quote:

Originally Posted by Mithie

Frankly, I don't care what you do with your time. If you want to charge other people for playing the same game, fine, but I won't ever be paying anyone for anything, especially not when I see this game as entertainment and not as economic burden.

Now this is a refreshingly open-minded stance, one more people should take an example from. You don't like it, so you don't participate in it, but that doesn't mean you go out and tell other people they are bad/stupid/selfish for doing it. Bravo!

Bingley Joe · Jul 19, 2005, 07:00 PM // 19:00

Quote:

Originally Posted by Chad

Personally I don't have enough faith in random people to place that much trust in them.

Yes.. well it should come as no surprise that once your own word is worthless, everyone else's is as well.

QuixotesGhost · Jul 19, 2005, 07:01 PM // 19:01

I think the question monks considering charging for thier services should be asking themselves is:

"What sort of group "needs" a real healer instead of henchmen?"

and:

"Do you think you'll be able to keep that type of group alive?"

Vali Ironhand · Jul 19, 2005, 07:02 PM // 19:02

Algren, if you read this, thanks for helping me try to spider cap.

On to my opinion of this matter. My first character was a monk, i played through the game as a smiter, until i began to get (for lack of a better word, i'll just not put it here) upon for not healing. Wouldn't matter how many times i said i wasn't a healing monk, i'd get laughed at, or blindly invited to a group that is soon disappointed. So about the time i was doing Villainy i began healing, to my dismay. (i was a noob, so don't say i could have quit, i wasn't sure how much was left, and didn't want to abandon my first char) I hated it terribly, and can honestly say that now that i'm out of the swing of things, i'd need some practice before i could heal again. Mind you, i never charged for my services, though i was offered gold only twice. If someone else did it, i'd be fine with it, i'd only pay if i was desperate, but i'll pay for anything if i'm desperate enough (like that spider i'm trying to cap). Mind you, i've not been so desperate for a group i'd pay for something else, even though my ranger sits now in the Ring of Fire mission, awaiting a chance to find a group, and then to find one that can finish the mission. My gripe against people wanting monks is this:

People assume monks (and only monks) heal.

Then might i ask you, why should a monk have a secondary class? (or the other side, why should any class have monk secondary, besides the rez?) I played a Mo/W, and i used the swordsmanship attribute, along with smites, and healing, so yeah, later game mission were hard to come by. What makes an E/Mo healer worse, or Me/Mo, or any caster type char a worse healer (rangers and warriors sure, but energy seems to me a problem) than a monk primary.

Anyways, not sure where this went or where it came from, i'll try to shorten it up. If someone is so desperate for a healer they will pay, then let them pay, it's not hurting *you* is it? (like that guy in the UW last night, asked me to reinvite him to group, only to say "leaders always pay." guess how long he lasted in my group)

And of course my secondary point: NOT ALL MONKS HEAL, GET OVER IT.

Edit: my only gripe against henches in the later missions are two things, lack of infusion (if that's so, i'm not sure) and a tendency to walk into lava, and not come out (possibly a pathing error, ANet should give henches some sort of environmental awareness, of course, then noone would play with humans)

Sleazy_D · Jul 19, 2005, 07:04 PM // 19:04

Look, I can understand both sides, but there's nothing stopping someone from asking for payment in order to help you through a mission. If someone says "Available N/W Guide for this mission: 1Kgp", and someone thinks that paying someone 1Kgp to do the mission is reasonable for any reason (wants to see a different way to do it, needs help from someone with TS, has tried, and failed a bunch of times with PUGs, whatever), then no one loses (assuming things went as planned, but we're talking concepts here).

Most people are not willing to pay for a guide, or escort, or whatever the mercenaries are calling themselves simply because they want to keep their own money, and figure it out for themselves. That's fine. There's no need to pay, as you'll probably find people to play with.

Monks can do this more often since there aren't as many of them in the game for various reasons (not the least of which is missing most of the game looking at life bars gets old), and they make great scapegoats since people have learned to rely on healing for too much of the game. Any other profession can do it too, but they are far less respected for whatever reason, or far too many in number (Rangers, saddly have both problems right now).

The short of it is, if you don't agree with payment for participation in a mission... don't pay. Please don't knock the guys doing it as if they're doing something wrong, or reprehensible. That's a weak argument in favor of forced socialism(?), and the kind of argument hippies make when someone makes money that they can't.

Xonic · Jul 19, 2005, 07:05 PM // 19:05

Quote:

Originally Posted by QuixotesGhost

I think the question monks considering charging for thier services should be asking themselves is:

"What sort of group "needs" a real healer instead of henchmen?"
and:
"Do you think you'll be able to keep that type of group alive?"

I've reached upto Dunes, Hereo's Audicence etc areas, explored a little, and cleared most of the desert area outside of Oasis including boss mobs with henchmen. I am sure there are many missions that can't be done without skilled players. but I can say I can go pretty far into the game without paying for monk healing.

a lot of time I am better off with henchmens than with bad players.

Algren Cole · Jul 19, 2005, 07:09 PM // 19:09

lol Vali....that was definately the wierdest trip into the underworld I've ever been on....but atleast we established that 3 rangers can't fair too well in the UW..

we'll try to cap it again soon.

btw: I think I showed you last night that I have more than enough energy to be a primary healer

everyone calls me a noob for carrying around a staff...until they realize that my ranger has over 50 energy

glockjs · Jul 19, 2005, 07:10 PM // 19:10

[email protected] people actually paying.

things like this is why i created a monk 2 days ago. im sick of stupid antics like this and i was tired of waiting around for a monk in the shiverpeaks to cap my stupid skills....btw i'll probably be in the shiverpeaks in the next couple of days if anybody needs any monk assistance...im not great but im "ok"

QuixotesGhost · Jul 19, 2005, 07:15 PM // 19:15

Quote:

Originally Posted by Xonic

I've reached upto Dunes, Hereo's Audicence etc areas, explored a little, and cleared most of the desert area outside of Oasis including boss mobs with henchmen. I am sure there are many missions that can't be done without skilled players. but I can say I can go pretty far into the game without paying for monk healing.

a lot of time I am better off with henchmens than with bad players.

The point I'm trying to make is this:

1. What sort of group is so desperate for monks that they are willing to pay?
(I'll fill in the answers this time)
That's right, Bad Ones. Good ones are confident in thier ability to rely on henches instead.

2. Can the best monk in the world keep groups like this alive?
No.

3. What happens to your agreement when some idiot gets the team wiped?
"OMG OMG HEAL HEAL! RES RES RES! WE PAYED FOR YOUR SERVICES WHY DIDN'T HEAL NOOB!" Try explaining in those circumstances why agroing half the map is a bad idea.

4. What's the result of charging for your monk services?
Noob-sitting for the rest of your GW days.

Andy_M · Jul 19, 2005, 07:19 PM // 19:19

Pay a monk for healing ? When they already get their share of money and drops ? No thanks, I'll take a henchie.

Perception · Jul 19, 2005, 07:19 PM // 19:19

Too bad there wasn't a poll to see who would pay and who wouldn't. I wouldn't pay, but then I'm my own monk and I have friends who are monks too and we don't charge each other. We play as the game intended, as a team. Anyone who doesn't, we boot from the team.

Bingley Joe · Jul 19, 2005, 07:27 PM // 19:27

Quote:

Originally Posted by Bingley Joe

Darksci - I think I would seriously look into how you might give the impression of a much 'sweeter' deal to potential customers, otherwise I have a feeling you won't have much luck with this.

Something like "don't pay if three or more of you die", or "free for any teammates who need more than one rez", etc. Something you think you can handle (you want to be paid, after all), but that still implies a decent risk on your part so they'll be tempted to gamble on you failing.

Those are my thoughts, anyway..

Quote:

Originally Posted by Algren Cole

i'd purposefully rush mobs without my armor on...

LOL! Thanks Algren, for demonstrating so succinctly why one must always be very careful when negotiating a contract

To protect themselves from shenanigans, the dial-a-monk would obviously want to make it very clear that you'd only get one warning about doing things they deemed to be 'dangerous to your health' before they simply leave the party (pretty common policy even for the freebie-monks out there).

Tutompop · Jul 19, 2005, 07:34 PM // 19:34

If I needed a player controlled monk to finish a mission and none were readily available for an hour or two I might get desperate enough to pay for a monk's service. However, this monk is not going to make the team. If the team itself is incapable of working together well then no monk no matter how good can save it and thus was doomed from the start.

I would also like to add that I have never NEEDED a player controlled monk as my n/e and when nobody was fortunate enough to realize my potential I simply ran the mission with henchmen. Until thunderhead keep before they infused the henchmen, sorry mursaat owned them nonstop. Which is why I created my second character.

My second character turned primary is a mo/me which I enjoy playing a great deal more as my abilities are utilized more often and with much more recognition. I have been offered payment one time to join a group and often ignore requests offering to pay for a monk. I find these groups are indeed doomed to fail if no monk's will join them for the sake of running a mission/fow/uw raid. In addition, I am not an automatic "win" button, I would not personally feel comfortable charging a fee for a mission and then some goon blowing it by aggroing too many mobs even IF it wasn't my fault. However, as a monk I fully believe that I am allowed to be selective about which groups I will join. There is no way I will waste my time with a group full of "extreme example" death necros who all want to raise minions.

My time as a monk also tells me that for missions at my level a monk does not automatically mean "we win" any number of things can go wrong. Bad groups can't make it past the first mission in FoW. Good groups can, granted as a protection monk taking away half the enemy damage for the entire mission (7 life bonds at all times) I increase the chances a great deal but I still need competent teammates.

As for comparisons to necros/rangers/mesmers and the like, people need to stop kidding themselves. Monks are in a different league than these guys. 3 and 4 man UW runs do not include necros/mesmers/rangers because they are not essential. Yes, they all "can" contribute but will not be missed if they are not there. I notice when the aataxe are blind from a dust trap because it makes my job 70% easier on the whole but I don't NEED that help. Hell, even a war isn't essential if the team is good enough or have a build properly thought out to handle the mobs. I believe a monk posted his SOLO UW build not but a few days ago. Monks ARE unique in their ability to mitigate damage AND heal it in short order, sorry but thats the reality of the game at the moment.